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Take heed, all who are alarmed by the recent abandonment of logic and reason

((This group of skeptics is purely for RP, and is not intended to trash anyone’s RL religion. ))


Wiggy pounds a nail through the parchment and into the door of the New Babbage Militia headquarters, then steps back to admire his handywork…



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  1. Mosseveno Tenk Mosseveno Tenk September 18, 2010

    quick google on ‘assumptions of naturalism’ turned up this:


    1. Naturalism works. By assuming methodological naturalism, we have made
      tremendous advances in industry, medicine, agriculture, and many other
      fields. Supernaturalism has never led anywhere. Newton, for example,
      wrote far more on theology than he did on physics, but his theological
      work is largely forgotten because there has been no reason to remember
      it other than for historical curiosity.

    2. Supernaturalism is contentious. Scientific findings are based on hard
      evidence, and scientists can point at the evidence to resolve disputes.
      People tend to have different and incompatible ideas of what form
      supernatural influences take, and all too often the only effective way
      they have found for reaching a consensus is by killing each other
    • Zaida Gearbox Zaida Gearbox September 18, 2010

      ((Ramdom fact:  My human actually read some of Isaac Newton’s theology writing in a college theology class.  Probably the reason it isn’t widely read is because he was considered something of a heretic))

  2. Grendel Footman Grendel Footman September 18, 2010

    *from whatever negative zone he happens to be lost in currently*

    ignorance is bliss

  3. Zaida Gearbox Zaida Gearbox September 18, 2010

    *looks up sloth in the dictionary*  1) habitual disinclination to exertion; indolence; laziness. 2) A slow moving, STUPID animal that hangs upside down from trees.  *Decides SLOTH is a pretty good name for this group since “Willfully Ignorant and Intollerant” is too long and not as catchy*

  4. Brother Riddler Brother Riddler September 18, 2010

    ((If you want to watch people being gleefully and willfully ignorant and intolerant, try wearing a cassock for a day. It was shocking. Malus decided to make himself more extreme by developing his character as a parody of how people reacted to us.))

    • Sister Loxely Sister Loxely September 18, 2010

      ((I considered myself prepared, but it was still quite surprising. Still is in moments.))

    • Zaida Gearbox Zaida Gearbox September 18, 2010

      ((Belief in a diety is one of the things this group considers to be baaaad, so of course they’re going to act like butts toward anyone they see as representative of that belief. I’m on my cell phone while my niece is in ballet, but when I get home I’m going to post an event about Take It Down A Notch Babbage. the premise is that each person got the right to believe or not as they choose. If someone wants to believe in magic, fairies, the man in the moon or whatever or beleve in none of it its no skin off anybody else’s nose. I also find it very telling that SLOTH chose to include belief in God on their list of bad things. Just proves my point that the point of the recent rp in babbage is that religion is bad. Uniformity of belief would be boring. It would be not at all realistic because some people in the real world believe in elves, magic, etc and most people believe in some kind of God. This line of rp has the feel of being not rp but a desire to drive one group of people out of town which is funbusting, godmodding, and makes the idea of optional rp a big fat lie))

      • Tesla Tripsa Tesla Tripsa September 18, 2010

        “The City is home to an active roleplay community. RP is 100% optional here, but it is not 100% ignorable by the people who have made this city their home. The stories that are told in our streets have an inevitable impact on the character of the city, which is first and foremost a steampunk city. Characters based in magic and fantasy are strongly advised to consult with the mayor before settling in.”

        • Zaida Gearbox Zaida Gearbox September 18, 2010

          But, what if you’re not planing on RPing in Babbage at all?  You actually RP elsewhere, but just want to have a build/home here because the build theme of Babbage is cool?  What if you RP elsewhere and are visiting the city?  One of the things I’ve been struggling with is that some of my RL friends have been discussing the possibility of using SL as a means of “getting together” since we’re rather far-flung in the real world.  Not knowing how they’re going to choose to have their avatars look, I’ve been very hesitant to say, “We can meet at my place in Babbage,” lest someone get their panties in a twist over what some of them might look like or what we’re choosing to talk about.  And that feeling of discomfort is to the point where I actually feel like I need to buy land outside of Babbage, so we can have a meeting point.  And I’ll say that the Doctor Who/Timelord group really annoy me for some reason, but as long as a TARDIS doesn’t land in any of my builds, I’m more than happy to ignore it because I don’t feel like I have the right to piss in someone else’s good time.

          “Has an impact on the character of the city….” Recently I’ve been feeling the character of the city is one of meanness, and talking to others, I know I’m not alone.

          • Verlia Bilavio Verlia Bilavio September 18, 2010

            You don’t have to RP at all, or dress in period clothing. Since RP is 100% optional, you can build and have a completely OOC presence. There have been days where I’ve been building and wandering around town completely OOC dressed in jeans and a tshirt (mostly because I build in normal, modern clothes and am usually too lazy to change).

            If someone’s getting upset about people not RPing or not dressing correctly, then they obviously haven’t read the covenant.

          • Victor1st Mornington Victor1st Mornington September 19, 2010

            The amount of actual Timelords in New Babbage has been in decline for the past year, thats the “dump a freebie police box and log out” litter bug type.  The amount of actual Timelord roleplayers in the city is probably more than double what most people THINK the true number actually is, thats more of a sign of better roleplaying then anything else.

            The fact of the matter is New Babbage under Sprocket stuck a deal with the then smaller circle of roleplayers and several of the babbage regions got added to the main public database for the hand of omega console systems.  Some of the well known folks in New Babbage are infact Timelords…they just dont let anyone know.

            If you think Babbage has it bad, spend some time in Caledon.  Since i moved into babbage last year I’ve dealt with the more litter prone Timelords with an iron fist, threatening to ban them from THE major hub of Doctor Who fandom in SL (the sim i co-own, the Katrina region) if they dont clean up after themselves…and it’s worked to a point.

            Fact is Zaida, half of the clothing and furniture shops in Babbage wouldn’t be making anywhere near the amount of money they are making if it wasnt for the single largest spending group of roleplayers outside of the Trek groups…and thats us, the Timelords.

            The ones you have came across are probably the freebie police box users who walk around with the freebie Tennant avatar…or they are new to the Hands of Omega roleplay circles and havent managed to figure out their character yet.  To judge an entire group of roleplayers (whos numbers are well over a THOUSAND now) due to the actions of only a few, is like me saying we should get rid of all urchins over the actions of one or two of them.

            • Zaida Gearbox Zaida Gearbox September 19, 2010

              Did I say we should get rid of Timelords?  Nope. 

      • Bookworm Hienrichs Bookworm Hienrichs September 18, 2010

        ((Zaida–I think you’re reading too much into this.

        Speaking generally…granted, I don’t know what people have said or done to you, but from what I’ve seen and read, I don’t see anyone trying to force such things out completely, especially a belief in God. But there is a tension between the rational, scientific viewpoint and the religious–or paranormal–viewpoint that, I think, mirrors what was happening in Victorian times. I’m certainly not an expert on that, but what little I’ve heard or read seems to point to that.

        Though I’ve not referred to it much, Bookworm the character, like her typist, *is* a Christian. She has had, through her adventures here, to expand what she accepts as real, but she’s still a Christian. If anyone, in the course of RPing, objects to that, Bookworm the character may or may not be offended. The *typist,* however, will not, unless she’s darn sure it’s personal.

        (If you don’t mind, Zaida, I may have Bookworm start going to your church for her own, private worship. Different denomination, but at least it’s closer. *grin*)

        I think one of the problems with the Church of the Builder is that there isn’t really a clear idea of what it’s all about. At least, I know *I* still don’t have a clear idea. Perhaps a little more explanation about it would help? Bookworm hasn’t met many of the people connected with it yet, but if/when she does, I can assure you she’ll definitely be polite.

        As for Wiggy–I’m sure the typist has no such intention in mind, Zaida. Wiggy the *character* falls very much on the side of rationality, to the point, actually, of cluelessness. Remember, this is the man who still considers Mr. Underby to be a fine, upstanding citizen of this city. *grin*

        Looks like I’m getting long-winded again. I guess in summary, I’d say: Express reservations when you have them, but don’t ascribe more motives than are really apparent.))

        • Zaida Gearbox Zaida Gearbox September 18, 2010

          ((I might be reading it wrong, Book, but a lot of it (not all of it) has a feeling of mean spiritedness that goes beyond just RP which is why I’ve chosen to sit most of it out.  You are more than welcome to start attending Church of the Holy Innocents if you like.  My human isn’t Catholic either – she’s actually a Quaker.  That might actually be part of why this all bothers me so much – it’s a basic cornerstone of Quaker belief that each person has the right to worship – or not – as their conscience dictates.  I just built the Catholic church because 1) I’ve many fond memories of Catholic school which include being taken to Mass by the sisters, 2) A city the size of Babbage would expect to have many churches in it.)) 

          • Mosseveno Tenk Mosseveno Tenk September 18, 2010

            chosen to sit most of it out? then quit stirring the pot!

            If you cannot maintain the objectivity and emotional maturity required to deal with conflict based roleplay, then please, i am begging you, stay out of it, and don’t go rabble rousing and then complain about the results. some things can be safely poked, others you’d best put on some heavy gloves first. A big downside of this web community is things that would otherwise never be noticed by those not wishing to participate are on display for everyone to see.

            You are trashing this for those that wish to play and explore the questions being raised about machine sentience.

            • Zaida Gearbox Zaida Gearbox September 18, 2010

              Actually, I think THAT RP is really cool.

              • Mosseveno Tenk Mosseveno Tenk September 18, 2010

                i think we’re going to have to have coffee….

        • Mosseveno Tenk Mosseveno Tenk September 18, 2010

          hmm, trying to find the soundbyte for the church thing, Miss H. organized skepticism? there’s certainly been no shortage of organized mysticism in town, going back to The Lodge in babbage square. i put some notes in the church of the builder group discussions as I come across things that are interesting, and i don’t check for public viewing so people that are uncomfortable with it don’t have to see it unless they have joined the group (something i really like about this forum).

          but maybe…

          it’s a math thing…

          you wouldn’t understand…

          • Bookworm Hienrichs Bookworm Hienrichs September 18, 2010

            Math, I understand. But worshiping math… *thppt*


              • Tepic Harlequin Tepic Harlequin September 19, 2010

                maybe it just don’t add up fer some people, Mr Tenk…… ;-)

                • Bookworm Hienrichs Bookworm Hienrichs September 19, 2010

                  Yes. I can’t divide my attention between two factors, or my problems will multiply. My faith is an integral part of me.

                  Yeah, it’s kind of a reach, isn’t it? Just subtract it from your memory.

      • Verlia Bilavio Verlia Bilavio September 18, 2010

        ((I think I can safely say that this group is meant to be taken as a joke, especially when it’s name is SLOTH and is in no way attacking the beliefs of the typists))

  5. Wiggy Undertone Wiggy Undertone September 18, 2010


    Absoulutely, this group was intended as a joke, and as a vehicle for creating ROLE PLAY confrontation.  Zaida, you are making a lot of assumptions that are simply not true.  I’m glad that Bookworm was able to see it for what it is at least.

    It’s obvious that this really struck a real-life nerve with a lot of folks though, and at that point it ceases to be fun, no matter what the original intention was.  For that reason, I am pulling the plug on this right now. 


    CARRY ON….

    • Mosseveno Tenk Mosseveno Tenk September 18, 2010

      i thought it was funny, and educational! i learned what ‘naturalism’ is as applied to philosophy.

      • Sky Netizen Sky Netizen September 18, 2010

        Agreed, I liked it. I’d enjoy seeing it stick around.

        • Gabriell Anatra Gabriell Anatra September 18, 2010

          Same here. It could be a good RP tool.

          I had wanted to do a background story featuring an encounter with some of the truly vile detritus of society but given the responses to this and that whole magic thing I’m thinking not.

          The tensions over mysticism and science were by no means the biggest in victorian society, social darwinism and bigotry were also quite rampant even by 50’s standards. This would neccessarily have been very watered down in this tale, but still it’s probably too heavy a subject matter.

          SLOTH, though, that could have been fun and funny too.

    • Kaylee Frye Kaylee Frye September 18, 2010

      Aww.  I don’t think it”struck a nerve with a lot of folks”.  It struck a nerve with one person, and thats hardly reason to stop doing something.

  6. Grendel Footman Grendel Footman September 18, 2010

    i thought it was funny too.

    honestly if you don’t like an RP, then it’s easy,  just don’t get involved, rather than say your not but keep sniping about it on the not-ning. it’s just an RP, and all it’s doing is generating some decent RP conflict


    sill not sure how it went from artifical people to magic and elves, but it’s all good

  7. Tesla Tripsa Tesla Tripsa September 18, 2010

    What were we talking about again?

  8. Zaida Gearbox Zaida Gearbox September 18, 2010

    ((If it’s all RP then I’m completely cool with it, and since it appears that I’m misreading the feeling – I apologize.  This might be part of the wayyyy too much stress in the real world coming out, so do feel free to ignore me or tell me when I’m being over emotional))

    • Mosseveno Tenk Mosseveno Tenk September 19, 2010

      righto, i’m saying something.

      past experience tells me that times of personal stress are the times not to engage in rp, because you are particularly vulnerable to the lure of escaping into your avatar (which will probably make your stressors worse because of the time you are spending here rather than dealing with it). as one of the major rp’ers in town often says… “this game is NUTS!” when he experiences a real emotional response to something that has changed the situation of his avatar in world.

      that is the time NOT to respond, until you, the typist, regains some objective seperation from the situation.

      there are people who simply cannot do this. i’ve had to ask them to go roleplay in more structured environments, and just hang out and visit if they still want to come to new babbage.

  9. Wiggy Undertone Wiggy Undertone September 18, 2010

    [OOC]  I’ve never meant to offend anyone.  Let me think about it for a bit and see if I still want to go forward with this or not.

  10. Zaida Gearbox Zaida Gearbox September 18, 2010

    ((Go forward with it Wiggy.  I’ll keep quiet – or try to.  :-p))

    • Wiggy Undertone Wiggy Undertone September 19, 2010

      Okay.  I’ll go forward with it.  :-)


      • Zaida Gearbox Zaida Gearbox September 19, 2010

        ((An’ Ah’ll be a good little girl – except for accidently shooting out windows with my slingshot – run around with the urchins and just watch…))

  11. Cral Denimore Cral Denimore September 19, 2010

    All Hail the Wise and Benevolent Mr. Tenk!

    “Out of the Chaos, from the Forge of His Thought, the Great Builder drew forth the First Hammer…

    And lo, though sorely beset on all sides by the Chaos that was, and is, the Great Builder took up the First Hammer and set to the Timbers of Logic that form the framework of the Universe, and mathematics were his nails…”



  12. Glaubrius Valeska Glaubrius Valeska September 20, 2010

    Well now, any discussion with this much sound and fury caynt be all bad.  It goes along with various observations I have made and conversations overheard of people interested in certain, well, “religious” activities.  I have heard speculations about the effect of lodes of iron under the city and why certain rituals do not succeed, or various prayers are not heard.  SLOTH may prove to be a bit fanatical in their applications, but the discourse should be valuable; as long as good taste and good manners are observed, of course.

    ((There is a good deal of magical realism in Steampunk literature.  And then there is the interest in Spiritualism hanging round during the 19th Century, witness the Lincolns and Queen Victoria, that such things are reasonable to experiment with — the Age of Reason on one end and the Second Great Awakening on the other.  Could be fun if it doan run amok…))

  13. Jonathon Spires Jonathon Spires September 21, 2010

    all following in ooc:


    I’m coming in on this from someone who was mostly in the sidelines until putting his toe in the rp pool just recently, but I’m pretty experienced with rp. I’ve seen IC/OOC squabbles occur before, but not to this extent. The undies get pretty easily knotted, it seems.

    Basically, I don’t get all the hubbub. It’s understood usually that you are not necessarily the person you rp. My character is a bit of an odd one. He believes in science and the occult, thinking he can explain the latter out rationally and use it like he uses any other tool.

    He’s also a product of what I think might be a common attitude in a make-believe sort of steampunk place: humanist jingoism. He also believed in the Church even if he violates its teachings once in awhile (quite a few RL religious people do to, including me)

    The affrontery that people take to IC stuff here astounds me.

    Without naming names I recently had need to aquire a script from someone I was let to believe either sold them or gave them out (I wasn’t sure which), for a project that specifically required this person’s own script.

    I was told flat out that I would not receive it because of my attitude towards clockwork people. After about 20 minutes of what I thought was IC banter, I realized this person was specifically upset at me ooc. I haven’t met any AI human beings, certainly not ones made out of springs and gears, so it’s true, no one can say for certain I wouldn’t be condescending to one. I tend to think I wouldn’t. I realy tend to think it doesn’t matter of hill of beans. But to this person, it did.

    So, RP at your own risk here, appaerntly.


    That said, I like the idea of SLOTH. You can’t have RP without conflict. You can’t have conflict without disparity. I like New Babbage in part because it does not attempt to depict a perfect world. Those are boring for some, splended for others.



    • Mr Tenk Mr Tenk September 21, 2010

      I was told flat out that I would not receive it because of my attitude towards clockwork people.

      whoa. Bad Form.

      • Mr Underby Mr Underby September 21, 2010

        Exceedingly bad form.  I’m getting the distinct feeling that much of this stems from IRL issues.  

    • Zaida Gearbox Zaida Gearbox September 21, 2010

      Dude! Really?  I have zero (zip, nada, zilch) experience with RP outside of SL, and sometimes I do have trouble telling whether or not some people’s mean attitudes are OOC or IC, but you’re not one of them….

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