So…
Some folks know what happened to my house in Clockhaven last year, a prim heavy vehicle flew over it, litterally parked their airship and half of MY build got returned.
The same thing has happened this morning. My house in Academy this time (not the hotel, the carriage house) the entire back wall and half the inner walls was missing. Brunel and the Carriage house hasnt had a lot of prims spare, about 100 odd over the past few weeks.
4 hours later someone was flying through Academy into Pallisade with a 77 prim airship and had crossed the sim border into palisade, i took this snapshot of the land panel on Beq Janus house on the border…
The line that says “11 will be deleted” is the one to look at.
When a vehicle, wether it be a ground based, sea based or air based goes into a parcel that doest NOT have enough prims to support it, the last rezzed prims BEFORE the vehicle entered the parcel…
…are deleted. They are NOT returned. This means that if that person had sat on Beqs place for more than a few minutes, some of Beqs stuff would have been deleted..gone, vanished. It’s what happened to my place in Clockhaven last year, its whats happened to my place in Academy this year and the reports ive been hearing from a few people saying some of their furniture has vanished COULD be down to this.
LL used to not allow parcel entry of vehicles into parcels that didnt have enough prims to support them. It now looks like this isnt working.
I think all vehicles that are not attached to the avatar (the rez and sit kind) which are over 31 prims should not be allowed in New Babbage at all.
People have left aside 31 odd prims for the normal vehicles…but when it comes to the larger vehicles that are 100 or 200 prims…flying over someones parcel and gettting that persons house, furniture and other stuff removed…thats a big no.
I noticed this the other day when an airship that must have had over 100 prims flew over the power station. Fortunatly they moved on before anything got returned, but it worried me enough to remove a load of prims to make space.
Wait, vehicles can have more than 32 prims?!?!?!( joking)
Seriously though, I personally think that vehicles that are more than the original limit of 32 prims(not counting attachments or detail parts that are rezzed when the pilot gets off) use too many sim resources and should at the very least be discouraged. Also, I would encourage everyone to make an up-to-date copy of their build and make sure they have copies of furnishings and decorations.
That being said, perhaps we should use an empty parcel to conduct a test. Fill it mostly with prims and then enter it with a large vehicle to see if the prims are returned or outright deleted. This way we can know for sure before a decision is made.
i’ve got some adjacent empty parcels out in the vernian you can use as testing platforms.
Never realised vehicles could go over 31 prims, always designed under that. High prim items are a problem, just a suprise an over prim item can be rezzed or made to enter a sim that has insufficent prims, sounds daft to me.
Hope we get some progress on this, and from what people are saying, the data is being collected and things getting done, very New Babbage, well done everyone!
Non-physical vehicles can be any size. I’ve seen airships for sale that are several hundred prims. In fact, I own one that’s about 170.
any size but there are some limits. linked objects can only be 256 prims. That doesn’t stop vehicles from being made of more than one object.
Is there a jira that addresses this? i hadn’t had any reports of this in a while and what hoping we’d seen the last of it. this has also happened at canolli’s shop, the library, and a couple places in the gut.
you can set your land to no object entry to protect yourself, which sucks, becaues it will block street access in some places and make arial navigation difficult.
folks, we need to publicize this issue loudly and make the lab take notice of it. people buying those big airships have no idea that this happens.
We need a JIRA number, and we need to get this one out….
Good lord! That kind of behavior on the part of the simulator seems so unanticipated that it has to be a bug. And the Steamlands are most likely to be victimized by this behavior.
When I was living in the port recently I’d regularly see people rez ships or airships etc of 200 plus prims, then either leave them or fly/sail off and get mangled on the sim borders. A 250 prim airship could cause alot of problems if it flew over multiple plots. People would see the legit ships people were renting space for and just rez willy nilly without a care. They might just not realise, but still it was annoying to find stuff crashed or left hours after it was rezzed.
One question, if something gets deleted, doesn’t it end up in the trash folder of the owner ?
Is there a way to have a single scripted prim look for rezzed objects on city land and return any over a certain prim count as they are rezzed if not set to the engineers group and message the person saying “Oi, behave”.
Before a jira can be written, we need to prove this is reproducible. i’ve sold lorefield a test lot north of the academy wall to see if he can force it to happen.
possible related issues
https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-22
https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1070
https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-2223
https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5509
It does not look like anyone has brought up the case that we are seeing.
Would it be reasonable to contact the builders of these ships and have them put a warning in their sales information? I realize this might possibly scare off potential buyers, but surely some of them might be reasonable if the alternative is to have their vehicles banned?
the preferred behavior of servers until recently is that such vehicles are stopped from entering parcels that do not have the prims to spare…. veteran pilots have the bruises to validate this.
Recent server changes must have run amok…
Most pilots shy away from the vehicles over 32 prim, but there are some sophisticated (mad scripting skills) versions that rez around a pilot after they sit a chassis.
On the temporary solutions side of things…. how would New Babbage advise visitors not to rez large prim airships and fly them around? Since you can arrive nearly anywhere and rez in so many locations…. it seems you need to deliver a warning based on arrival?
Forwarding Lorefield’s notes-
Notes on the the testing of the return/delete problem encountered when a large prim count vehicle enters a parcel.
tests done on a 394 prim parcel in the Academy of Industry sim.
sim information: 161843.7, 257739.4, 93.9 in Academy of Industry located at sim9829.agni.lindenlab.com (216.82.45.163:13001)
Second Life Server 12.01.06.247303
Test 1.
starting conditions:
200 prims on parcel (195 prims available)
prim load consists of 2 100-prim linksets of blocks
test vehicle: 425 prim multi-part non-physical airship
no return time on parcel
procedure: drive vehicle into test parcel.
results:
only 282 prims able to enter the parcel, parcel states that 87 will be deleted
When avatar dismounts vehicle, part of it is returned so that the prim limit is restored to below parcel limit
Test 2.
starting conditions:
200 prims on parcel (195 prims available)
prim load consists of 2 100-prim linksets of blocks
test vehicle: same 425 prim, multi-part, non-physical airship
no return time on parcel
procedure: drive vehicle into test parcel, do not dismount. Wait until either prims are deleted/returned, or 15 minutes, whichever elapses first.
test begins at 9:55 AM SLT
test ends at 10:10 AM SLT
results: once again, only 282 prims able to enter parcel (482 used out of 395 prims)
parcel states that 87 will be deleted.
after time has elapsed, no prims have been returned or deleted.
My hypothesis is that the objects being sat upon are not counted in the parcel prim limit the same way that other prims are. Once again, avatar dismounts and part of the vehicle is returned to meet parcel prim limits.
Test 3.
starting conditions:
200 prims on parcel (195 prims available)
prim load consists of 100-prim linkset of block and 1 set of 100 unlinked blocks
test vehicle: same 425 prim, multi-part, non-physical airship
no return time on parcel
procedure: drive vehicle into test parcel, do not dismount. Wait until either prims are deleted/returned, or 15 minutes. whichever elapses first.
test begins at 10:15 AM SLT
test ends at 10:30 AM SLT
results: once again, only 282 prims able to enter parcel (482 used out of 395 prims)
parcel again states that 87 will be deleted.
After the time has elapsed, no prims have been deleted or returned. When the avatar dismounts, part of the vehicle is returned to that the parcel is within it’s prim limits.
Conclusion: More tests need to be performed a vehicle not owned by the owner of the parcel and a mesh vehicle. So far the tests indicate that the statement that XX prims will be deleted is false, but it is possible that through server error said prims could be deleted. Further testing will tell for sure.
Test 4.
starting conditions:
200 prims on parcel (195 prims available)
prim load consists of 100-prim linkset of block and 1 set of 100 unlinked blocks
test vehicle: same 425 prim, multi-part, non-physical airship
return time set to 10 minutes on parcel
procedure: drive vehicle into test parcel, do not dismount. Wait until either prims are deleted/returned, or 15 minutes. whichever elapses first.
test begins at 11:21 AM SLT
test ends at 11:36 AM SLT
results: once again, only 282 prims able to enter parcel (482 used out of 395 prims)
parcel again states that 87 will be deleted.
After the time has elapsed, no prims have been deleted or returned. When the avatar dismounts, part of the vehicle is returned to that the parcel is within it’s prim limits.
Test 5.
starting conditions:
300 prims on parcel (95 prims available)
prim load consists of 2 100-prim linksets of blocks and 1 set of 100 unlinked blocks
test vehicle: 101 prim test vehicle (not owned by me this time)
return time set to 10 minutes on parcel
procedure: drive vehicle into test parcel, do not dismount. Wait until either prims are deleted/returned, or 15 minutes. whichever elapses first.
test begins at 11:49 AM SLT
test ends at 12:04 AM SLT
results: once again, only 282 prims able to enter parcel (482 used out of 395 prims)
parcel again states that 87 will be deleted.
After the time has elapsed, no prims have been deleted or returned. When the avatar dismounts, the vehicle is returned by the parcel.
I have yet to be able to reproduce the issue.
The last thing to try is a mesh vehicle that counts as more than 32 prims. This could possibly cause the issue since SL counts meshes differently than either prims or sculpts. In the future I should think it good to test it, but I don’t foresee the results being much different that have been observed with the other tests.
Nathaniel Lorefield, Test Engineer.
Ah, Science and Experimentation! Bravo, Mr. Lorefield, for that undertaking!
another series, this time with mesh objects…
Notes on the continued testing of the return/delete problem encountered when a large prim count vehicle enters a parcel.
tests done on a 394 prim parcel in the Academy of Industry sim.
sim information: 161843.7, 257739.4, 93.9 in Academy of Industry located at sim9829.agni.lindenlab.com (216.82.45.163:13001)
Second Life Server 12.01.06.247303
Test 6.
starting conditions:
300 prims on parcel (95 prims available)
prim load consists of 2 100-prim linksets of blocks and one 100 prim unlinked set
10 minute return time set on parcel
test vehicle: improvised mesh vehicle: land impact 190
procedure: drive vehicle into test parcel wait until either prims have been returned/ deleted or 15 minutes, whichever comes first.
test begins 3:45 PM SLT
test ends 4:00 PM SLT
results:
the vehicle is able to enter the parcel, but the parcel itself states that 95 prims will be deleted.
viewer crashes, test aborted
Test 7.
starting conditions:
300 prims on parcel (95 prims available)
prim load consists of 2 100-prim linksets of blocks and one 100 prim unlinked set
10 minute return time set on parcel
test vehicle: improvised mesh vehicle: land impact 209
procedure: drive vehicle into test parcel wait until either prims have been returned/ deleted or 15 minutes, whichever comes first.
test begins 4:05 PM SLT
test ends 4:20 PM SLT
results:
the vehicle is able to enter the parcel, but the parcel itself states that 115 prims will be deleted.
The vehicle remains through the entire testing time and nothing is deleted or returned. The vehicle is returned after
Test 8.
starting conditions:
300 prims on parcel (95 prims available)
prim load consists of 2 100-prim linksets of blocks and one 100 prim unlinked set
10 minute return time set on parcel
procedure: use a rezzing script to rez 100 prim object on parcel
results:
rezzing script fails to rez the object “parcel is too full”
Test 9.
starting conditions:
300 prims on parcel (95 prims available)
prim load consists of 2 100-prim linksets of blocks and one 100 prim unlinked set
10 minute return time set on parcel
procedure: use a rezzing script to rez the improvised mesh test vehicle
results:
rezzing script fails to rez the object “parcel is too full”
From the entire set of tests I reach the conclusions that the random returning/deleting of users objects is either a fluke of the sim/server that happens only happens a few times out of a few hundred cases or an accident.
Nathaniel Lorefield, Test Engineer
Good work Mr Lorefield!
Well so far the cases of it happening has been on group deeded land…the house in Academy is deeded. I think the one in clockhaven is group deeded as well.
Either way, it hasnt happened a lot…and if it did end up happening on the hotel itself…id simply switch off object entry so no one can fly over the entire hotel parcel.
It does look like a rare occurence, maybe due to sim side lag at the time of the vehicle flying over or something else.
I agree that it could be due to sim side lag. Perhaps on parcels where there are renters besides the owner (such as the hotels in New Babbage) it might be worthwhile to allow the shutting off of object entry so long as the parcel doesn’t take up a good part of the roads nearby.
“I swear sir, it wasn’t my fault! This great bloody hotel suddenly came up out of the fog!”
(I’ve had worse landings.)
Object movement into a full parcel is not *usually* counted against the parcel’s prim count. The problem arrises though where a parcel next to a sim border (like Victor’s Hotel or Beq’s House) is full and the non-physical prims are being transferred to the sim with the full parcel. That could be the only reason I can think of where existing prims on a parcel might get returned due to a vehicle crossing.
Victors house in clockhaven doesn’t seem close enough, but Blackberry told me that one time the hospital had this issue and some of it went up as well and it is near a border.
Are these builds locked? I just wonder how that affects it.
The same thing has happened in Caledon Middlesea. Note that Caledon Middlesea is a sim with no parcel cuts. Here are some observations from Wrath Constantine:
Regarding http://cityofnewbabbage.com/reader/node/4634 , the
Iron Cloud has had a 40-50 prim limit on rezzed vehicles. But now we are enforcing a 32-prim limit per the discussion, and support your decision to do the same. We too have had this happen, but usually when the sim was overprim and rolling restarts were reported. Perhaps when the sim restarts when full, it returns without prejudice while it’s starting up again? Something to consider for your tests. ^^